The Bottom Line
hosted by Evan Davis, BBC
The Bottom Line, hosted by Evan Davis, BBC
Major US businesses have begun ditching or scaling back their diversity initiatives. Will UK firms be next? Evan Davis is joined by three guests who specialise on diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) schemes, as well as environmental and sustainability issues. Do they see signs of UK companies shifting their stance? And to what extent is the DEI industry – and their jobs – under threat?
Guests:
Daniel Fellows, General Manager of Diversio UK and EU
Erinch Sahan, busines and enterprise lead at Doughnut Economics Action Lab
Chris Turner, Executive Director of B Lab UK
Production team
Producers: Farhana Haider, Simon Tulett and Eleanor Harrison-Dengate
Sound: James Beard
Production Coordinator: Katie Morrison
Editor: Matt Willis
00;00;01;10 – 00;00;05;11
A woman’s voice
BBC sounds music radio. Podcasts.
00;00;05;13 – 00;00;36;19
Evan Davis
Hello. Welcome to the podcast edition of The Bottom Line. It’s an extended remix version of what went out on the radio with bits we didn’t have time to include. Now it is hard to keep up with everything that President Trump is doing in the US, but he and his close allies like Elon Musk, couldn’t have been clearer about one thing that they think the time is up for numerous practices that have become pervasive in the corporate world, most notably Dei, diversity, equity and inclusion.
00;00;36;21 – 00;01;05;00
Evan Davis
Now, it was a controversial press conference the president gave recently, the day after the plane crash in Washington, in which he speculated that Dei policies had hindered the recruitment of the brightest people into air traffic control. The president’s views, and the fact that he won the election with a majority of the voters behind him, seems to have led to a pretty substantial rethink on Dei in the US, and indeed on some other ideas in the corporate world.
00;01;05;01 – 00;01;28;09
Evan Davis
It’s been amazing watching senior business folks in the US, like Mark Zuckerberg, pivot in their business practices to be more in line with the president’s worldview. And we thought we should talk about this today, DNI, for sure, but also ESG, environment, social and governance standards. Is that vibe shift that is apparent in the US? Is it coming here?
00;01;28;11 – 00;01;46;00
Evan Davis
And with me to discuss this, I’m joined by three guests. Let us first meet Daniel Fellows, general manager at diverse SEO UK and EU diverse SEO. I’m sure that is a meaningful part of the title of the company diversity there. I’m Daniel. Tell us what the term diversity is what you do.
00;01;46;03 – 00;02;02;00
Daniel Fellows
So Laura McGee, a CEO and founder, started in 2019. She worked at McKinsey as a consultant and worked with many business leaders who understood the value of change, may need to invest in people and culture, but had no data to back it up. And you know, the best decisions are made with data as well. So Laura started Diversio. It’s now in 50 countries. So we go out and we collect data, both demographic and workplace data that enables the to artificial intelligence to analyse. Have you got a flexible culture. Is it an inclusive culture that people feel safe within their workplaces?
00;02;15;22 – 00;02;20;03
Evan Davis
And you advise corporates on their culture and how to change it or improve? Absolutely.
00;02;20;03 – 00;02;22;05
Daniel Fellows
It can be corporates, it could be enterprise clients.
00;02;22;05 – 00;02;32;09
Evan Davis
And to what extent is DNI this very, very now? Well used phrase or an acronym? To what extent has that been a big part of your business?
00;02;32;12 – 00;02;37;16
Daniel Fellows
Yeah, it’s been a huge part. But again, everyone has a different understanding. These different layers, different nuance of DNI.
00;02;37;16 – 00;02;48;12
Evan Davis
Okay. I want us to be really clear about initials. I said Dei diversity, equity, inclusion. You said D and I, which sounds the same, but it’s just diversity and inclusion correct.
00;02;48;12 – 00;02;55;26
Daniel Fellows
Yeah. There is no right. There is no wrong way. It could be D and I, DEI, or DEI and B, it depends.
Evan Davis
B?
Daniel Fellows
Belonging.
00;02;57;21 – 00;03;19;13
Evan Davis
I think in the US the debate has focussed on the sort of DEI is the kind of the centre of great political attention. Let me introduce my second guest though, Erinch Sahan, who’s the former chief executive of the World Fair Trade Organisation, now is the business enterprise lead at a group called Doughnut Economics Action Lab. So, Erinch, tell us about Doughnut.
00;03;19;15 – 00;03;49;12
Erinch Sahan
Well, firstly, it’s not about pastries heaven. It’s about a doughnut that represents the two main boundaries that our entire economy and society have to live within. So on the outside, imagine a big circle representing the planetary boundaries, the nine planetary boundaries we must not transgress. And on the inside of the doughnut, imagine the social foundation, the essentials of life that we all need, that society needs livelihoods and energy and water and food, all the things that the economy has to produce.
So it’s a new way of envisioning the goal of our economy to get inside the doughnut, meet the needs of all within the means of the living planet that we occupy.
00;03;58;29 – 00;04;03;28
Evan Davis
And am I right in saying it’s a think tank? You produce reports and studies, and.
00;04;04;03 – 00;04;23;22
Erinch Sahan
Essentially we have a bit of a unique approach. We try to support people who have been moved by this idea of doughnut economics that my colleague and friend, Kate Raworth came up with and wrote the book on, and we try to also provide them with materials and support and convening. So we try to activate people who are practitioners of doughnut economics in different realms.
And I focus on the world of business and finance.
00;04;26;14 – 00;04;29;20
Evan Davis
Do businesses pay you to give them advice or do you?
00;04;29;22 – 00;04;37;23
Erinch Sahan
We’re very fortunate to be grant funded, and we put everything we create into what’s called the Creative Commons. So it’s there for anybody to use and engage with.
00;04;37;26 – 00;04;49;20
Evan Davis
Would I be right in saying you’re on the more progressive end of the kind of political debates we’re talking about towards sustainability and net zero DEI? Probably.
00;04;49;20 – 00;05;08;05
Erinch Sahan
Yeah, I mean, definitely. So the inside of the doughnut includes gender equality, includes social equity. It includes political voice. These are things, by the way, the world governments have agreed to in the Sustainable Development Goals. So we’d say that these are pretty universal as a goal. How we get there is where the debate starts.
00;05;08;08 – 00;05;30;00
Evan Davis
We’re going to talk about where the debate is going, but I do want to introduce our third guest, Chris Turner, executive director at B lab UK. And Chris, I should say, you very kindly stepped in at the last minute when your colleague Andy became, well, so, just tell us about B Corp’s and B lab. We did do a bottom line on this some years ago, but for new listeners.
00;05;30;02 – 00;05;52;15
Chris Turner
Thanks, Evan. Yeah. So B Corp’s, businesses, which have gone through essentially a kind of self-obsessed process of going through and taking a look at the way that their business runs, the way that they treat their people, the impact that they have on the environment and on on society, essentially. So there’s over 9000 of those around the world and over 2400 of them in the UK.
And then we verified that assessment. So we do all kind of third party checks and make sure that they’re doing what they say.
00;05;58;10 – 00;06;04;10
Evan Davis
So you’re the certifying body of a certain standard of corporate behaviour.
00;06;04;13 – 00;06;05;29
Chris Turner
Yeah, that that’s absolutely.
00;06;05;29 – 00;06;07;15
Evan Davis
Right. Give us some names.
00;06;07;17 – 00;06;24;13
Chris Turner
Lots of companies that people would recognise from products that you find in supermarkets, like innocent drinks, for example, the smoothies and juices stores on the high street, like, Fat Face or White Company. And then actually the majority of B Corp are B2B businesses. So the one. Yeah.
00;06;24;13 – 00;06;25;19
Evan Davis
Business to business, yea
00;06;25;19 – 00;06;34;10
Speaker 5
Your business to business. Exactly. Serving other businesses. So there’s a huge range of consultants and service providers which are also certified B Corp’s as well.
00;06;34;12 – 00;06;58;29
Evan Davis
What is very interesting is all three of you are in what I think on the bottom line, we would have thought of as being the the ethical business space, I would have said completely has dominated the life of this program, in fact, which is not that far short of 20 years old, of this movement of businesses trying to be a force for good, to be inclusive, to have belonging.
And it just feels like there’s something massive going on over in the United States. So let’s start with DEI. What on earth do you all work in this area? What do you make of what is happening in the US?
00;07;10;16 – 00;07;18;15
Daniel Fellows
Yeah, I think it’s a very much, what see, diverse CEO has worked with a lot of my clients the last 2 or 3 weeks talking to them.
00;07;18;15 – 00;07;23;01
Evan Davis
Literally about what’s happening. Yeah, about what’s happening. The reset, if you like the Trump laws.
00;07;23;01 – 00;07;44;13
Daniel Fellows
Coming through, how it could affect the business, how it could affect their staff as well, should they continue with what they’re doing, should they reframe what they’re doing? And probably 80, 90% of our clients in North America are absolutely continuing to what they do. And that’s split between people that are investing and going full steam ahead. And the other folks are rebranding to people and culture and embedding that.
00;07;45;17 – 00;07;50;11
Evan Davis
Yeah, this is really they’re dropping the letters D I for the initiatives they have in that area.
00;07;50;11 – 00;07;57;25
Daniel Fellows
Yeah, it was kind of happening last year anyway. But then obviously the last four weeks has happened. So yeah, we are working with clients to help reframe what they’re doing.
00;07;57;25 – 00;08;02;01
Evan Davis
Reframe what they’re doing. Chris, what do you make of what’s been happening over in the state?
00;08;02;07 – 00;08;26;13
Chris Turner
I mean, it’s really disappointing seeing big corporations that lots of people admire rowing back from essentially Dei and initiatives and weather. And it’s not just what they’re calling them, but they’re kind of rolling those things back. So my overall take is it’s really disappointing, but it’s a hugely complex picture where those businesses essentially are making those decisions. I think largely based from a risk perspective.
They see risk of political backlash, they see risk of litigation from political risk.
But politically, if we’re seen to be against the president and his way of doing things, we might find ourselves, I do wonder whether any of you have rethought anything about Dei as a result of the the pushback.
00;08;46;04 – 00;09;06;18
Daniel Fellows
No. Everybody’s rowing back. There’s a t folks rowing boat, which you saw on inauguration or standing in a line because it’s not political. I’m interest to do that as well. But also, you had even met as diversity chief Maxine Williams. She’s staying at the company and her new title is vice president of accessibility and engagement. So that’s kind of a reframing that that’s not necessarily rowing back.
00;09;06;18 – 00;09;17;11
Evan Davis
Yeah. But I mean, they’ve they’ve done things like they’ve taken the, tampon machines out of the men’s toilets. Obviously they’re for trans men. Yeah. That kind of thing.
00;09;17;11 – 00;09;25;18
Daniel Fellows
Yeah. Possibly a dilution of what they’re doing as well. To your point, I think you’re personally constantly reviewing it and about how you’re contributing as well.
00;09;25;21 – 00;09;40;08
Evan Davis
Well, have you been reviewing it or maybe maybe Trump’s got a point in his critique of you all that this has become a bit of a religion. Companies are doing it without thinking about the costs, and it’s all got a bit silly. I don’t know, I’m I’m putting that to you as this sort of.
00;09;40;11 – 00;09;59;04
Erinch Sahan
Well, I mean, I’d say that what he’s probably noticed is just how fickle some of the corporate leaders that people like Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan, who just a couple of years ago, 2023, wrote to investors saying how great this is for the bottom line, now flips to the other side. Same with people who signed, you know, climate pledges.
Investors from Wall Street and beyond, as well as the corporate world. You know, he could see that if he could get a few of them to turn that little turn on, on, you know, on the dime, and that’s he’s taking advantage of that and it’s undermining, I think, some of the broader efforts we’ve been making, because it makes it all seem quite superficial.
If they can just flip the their point of view on just a little bit of a critique, then, you know, how strong was some of the stuff underpinning it?
00;10;26;07 – 00;10;42;27
Evan Davis
Yeah, Chris
Chris Turner
I think you know, Dion or whatever you call it is a I mean, in the scheme of things, it’s a sort of it’s a new corporate phenomenon, and it’s something that businesses are figuring out all the time and becomes question what they do all the time because they’re constantly trying to find better ways of doing things.
So I definitely think there’s kind of questioning within that, but it’s in pursuit of a set of values in a way of seeing the world that I don’t think is in question and which ultimately, I think is still the direction in which business culture more broadly is headed, despite some of the rollbacks we’ve been talking about in the US.
00;10;58;02 – 00;11;18;29
Evan Davis
One of the things I have seen, which I think is interesting, is is it an attack, not just on the kind of practice of these things, but of on the industry that promotes the practice? Now, by coincidence, we have the industry represented here. You’re all really in this kind of industry. Do you worry about what is going to happen to your businesses?
I mean, Daniel, you’re a consultant really, with a lot of DEI expertise.
00;11;23;16 – 00;11;43;09
Daniel Fellows
I’m a general manager. Thank you. Yes and no. I think it’s very localised and very nuanced. You’ve got North America very much in the firing line. I think within the UK and EU we are more protected by law and labour laws. We also have a number of guidelines, the ESRS guidelines which have come in which.
00;11;43;15 – 00;11;44;09
Evan Davis
Which are what?
00;11;44;16 – 00;11;45;12
Daniel Fellows
Essentially. Companies have to report on different levels of whether it’s gender pay, whether it’s equality within their companies as well. The fines can go up to €10 million within the EU as well. So that’s not anything that’s going away quickly. So we are I think to an extent could be naive, I don’t know. But we are relatively ringfenced against that, against companies for expression rubbing backs.
I think they’re doing so no, don’t worry at all for the bosses feature. For us it’s very, very exciting. Think of the available market in 2019 and think about where it is today. It’s exponentially larger. So I it’s a great opportunity.
00;12;21;09 – 00;12;23;26
Evan Davis
Erinch do you worry about the business?
00;12;23;28 – 00;12;44;16
Erinch Sahan
Well, I mean, I worry that we’re losing credibility more broadly and not just on Dei and more broadly, because I think we spent the last couple of decades picking a lot of low hanging fruit, the stuff that was quite easy to do where there was an obvious business case, there was a cost saving to be had a few years less water or energy.
There was a bit of a growth in ethical consumers, or there was a premium to be had in the market. What I’ve seen and I do a bit of teaching at Cambridge, I teach, you know, executives. And what I’ve seen is that the low-hanging fruit have been picked, and now we’re at the heart of it. And as soon as things get hard, a whole bunch of people jump off the wagon because, you know, a lot of corporates, they move in packs.
I’ve had lots of senior executives over the last 15 years. Tell me, look, I don’t want to stand out on some of this stuff. I’ll move together with the rest of the pack. And when the pack moves backwards, they start to move backwards. But ultimately, I think we didn’t see enough substance. You know, we sold them on this idea that this is going to be painless.
There are no trade-offs.
00;13;24;18 – 00;13;26;18
Evan Davis
You’re thinking of sustainability in particular.
00;13;26;19 – 00;13;42;16
Erinch Sahan
Sustainability, like it’s going to be great. Your job is going to, you know, you’re going to get paid more in this new economy. Everything’s going to work out great for investors. They’re going to have more returns. It’s more money. It’s win win all round. And I think that it’s becoming quite clear that’s not the case. It’s quite a messy picture.
And I’m worried that we’re trying to get an outdated structure of companies from the 20th century to do things that they’re not designed to do. They’re designed to extract maximum profits, and we’re trying to do our best. I think a lot of people in this space are trying to do their best with that structure, and the bit that’s starting to feel more and more obvious to me in my work is that we need to redesign this thing. This corporate machine wasn’t built for the 21st century challenges we now face. And some of this stuff, it’s going to cost more. It’s going to take greater risk. It’s going to mean a bigger investment. It might mean lower margins for a while in order to pivot our economy so that we can survive as a society and as a species on this planet.
And we’ve been spending too much time pretending like the outdated structure can get us there.
00;14;28;05 – 00;14;49;18
Evan Davis
Right. So, I mean, you’re making two points there. One is that we need to redesign the if you like, the vehicles which are going to deliver it. But the other is that there was a lot of hypocrisy and over promising, and that is perhaps causing some of the cynicism and the backlash. But that is partly against people like you, just partly about the profits of this new way of thinking.
Yeah. And part of the political mission for these guys is to cut you all down.
00;14;54;13 – 00;15;20;27
Chris Turner
I think everyone makes really good points, and I think there is a there’s a great deal of danger in trying to present a sort of incontrovertibly positive future for every business in just trying to sort of meet some fairly arbitrary targets or do a few things differently. And I think that that’s what we’re trying to do with B Corp, essentially, is to show that you can so it can be a win-win.
Some businesses can do this. Lots of things that are in just describing and thrive. Not every business can. Some need to be fundamentally redesigned. The bit that I would highlight, which I think is essentially the sort of secret sauce of B corps, is the fundamental shift that they make in their governance structures. So every B Corp makes a change to its legal articles in the UK, which means that they commit in those governing articles that they lodge with companies house to essentially advance the interests of a wider set of stakeholders.
So to balance the interests of people, planet, and profit, which means essentially that they are not just signing up to a bunch of arbitrary or a list of things it’s no sense in, which it is a tick box exercise, but they’re essentially kind of steering the governance of the business towards a set of aims which are there to benefit all of us.
I mean, my argument would be we need to frame what business is for, why it exists, and our kind of social contract with business, what it owes to us, and then the way in which a business lives up to those responsibilities, whether it’s commitments to science-based targets, whether it’s doing an optional certification like B Corp, whether it’s doing something else is completely up to that business.
And there will be a different option that is right for every business.
00;16;35;28 – 00;16;39;05
Evan Davis
I would surprised actually Nespresso is because that right the.
00;16;39;12 – 00;16;39;25
Chris Turner
That’s right.
00;16;39;25 – 00;16;51;15
Evan Davis
The division of Nestlé producing the the coffee pods. Yeah because I’ve never thought of that has been particularly sort of environmentally friendly way of delivering espresso shots to people’s homes.
00;16;51;17 – 00;17;17;28
Chris Turner
First of all, the B Corp certification is completely transparent. So everybody if they’re wondering how flexible it is, they can look at any B Corp in the world on our directory and see exactly how they score. And where they pick up the points in our assessment. The other important thing to say, actually, there’s one important thing to say about the vehicle assessment, which is essentially that the one of the underlying principles of B Corp certification is ongoing improvement.
So that counts for both us in designing the assessment that B Corp certifies. And there’s a huge update to that being published this year, which will completely redesign how we do it actually, and introduce some really rigorous minimum standards that every B Corp has to meet. But that principle of ongoing improvement also applies to B Corps. So B Corps have to recertify every three years.
And so they have to meet our increased standards. And ultimately, therefore, they are never resting on their laurels. And indeed, in many ways, the sort of purpose the function of the vehicle community is in creating a race to the top.
00;17;52;13 – 00;17;59;07
Evan Davis
You’re not worried, though, because the movement continues despite a backlash against these kinds of initiatives.
00;17;59;09 – 00;18;08;18
Chris Turner
It does. It continues in I mean, in the UK, we’ve seen enormous growth. We’ve seen the B Corp community. I think it grew about 40% last year.
00;18;08;23 – 00;18;11;03
Evan Davis
And has dried up since Trump became president.
00;18;11;05 – 00;18;13;04
Chris Turner
It hasn’t dried up. It hasn’t changed. No.
00;18;13;06 – 00;18;44;29
Evan Davis
I mean, I think it’s important to us. To what extent do we think what is happening in the US is coming to the UK? And what I think is interesting and will be very germane to the question of whether it comes here, is the way businesses heard and the way the herd moves outside. It’s so fascinating. I’m not a business people really not capable of independent thought, of thinking these things through, working out what they think about diversity and what’s good for their business or sustainability and coming to a conclusion.
Does it have to be that a president says it’s and then the businesses all scuttled around follow? I just I find it very interesting that it’s been such a politically led process rather than shareholder-led or employee-led or managerial class. It is really it’s come from politics, all of this, hasn’t it?
00;19;02;27 – 00;19;26;17
Chris Turner
It’s a really good point. I mean, essentially I think what you’re highlighting is that being a business leader is a really difficult job, and it’s getting more difficult in part because of the movement where a part of, I mean, business leaders are increasingly facing a raft of regulation of reporting requirements, you know, which is just another set of obligations they have alongside the obligations they already have to their shareholder.
Is it the obligations they have to their people, to that their employees, the obligations they have to their customers, and trying to ultimately solve a problem for them? And I think a lot of what we’re reflecting on here, in terms of what’s happening in the US, is clearly some really pressing, factors that business leaders have to consider, which are leading to some of the decisions we’ve talked about.
And I think the interesting question about whether it is coming to the UK is thinking about, well, how does that equation change in the coming years in the UK? And I think our perspective is that in terms of there being, a pack, moving with the pack or moving with the herd of other businesses, there is a critical mass, I think, of businesses in the UK which are really committed to the AI principles.
That essentially means, I think, that that pack will continue to move in a direction that we would all want to see. And I also think that culturally in the UK, there has not been the the same level of opposition that has been created by essentially trying to turn what we’re saying into some kind of ideology, which it isn’t, but attacking the DEI and and this movement as an ideology, I think, is driving a lot of what you see.
00;20;38;25 – 00;21;08;07
Evan Davis
It has happened here and I’ve heard Liz Truss attack DEI, ESG, the acronyms, all of that. Liz Truss is not the political force in the UK that Donald Trump is in the United States. So, I mean, obviously there is a difference between the size of the right, if you like. In the UK we have a massive majority Labour government, but I do wonder whether that has been put aside, political developments in the United States, whether there has been already a pushback against a lot of this in the UK.
So the FCA, the Financial Conduct Authority, did try proposing DEI monitoring activities for companies under its purview. And the companies are like, give us a break. We don’t want to do this. And the FCA did, in fact, press pause on it. I’m interested in that one. But also, just in general, I know companies have begun to groan when they get another ESG questionnaire from a company that says, we’re here to reach you for your shareholders.
And they’re like, we’ve already done 25 of these. We’re no need to do everybody’s questions. It’s just a waste of everyone’s time. I mean, have you noticed, already something of the backlash here?
00;21;46;05 – 00;22;12;00
Erinch Sahan
What I’ve noticed is that some companies who are skeptical of this find greater confidence in pushing back companies that might have done it, maybe more, more silently or through corridors of power without the public knowing about it now being a bit more open. But at the same time, I think there is a growing amount of companies, including companies that are certified companies in in other movements that are coming together and giving the opposing view.
So I think the most useful thing we can do is see the diversity in the business world as well, is that there are companies that are saying level the playing field, where doing some of this stuff, where out ahead we need regulations and others try to really pulled back, government action.
00;22;27;22 – 00;22;30;04
Evan Davis
Did you spot that FCA case? Daniel.
00;22;30;04 – 00;22;53;15
Daniel Fellows
Yeah, we did a roundtable couple of weeks ago around financial services, and there is a lot, lot, much more of a spotlight, you know, sort of key compliance trends in in 2024, we talked about the ESG reporting mandates, the CSRD, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, compliance obligations with the EU. So whilst I agree with your point, people might delete the email when it arrives.
Actually, that’s going to be followed up by huge fines from a non-compliance perspective, reputational damage or regulatory scrutiny. From what I’ve been told, it’s going to get a lot more restrictive. To your point, less. Oh, it’s a nice to have. You’re obligated to do this. And we will follow up this with substantial fines when the financial services sector, if you don’t start reporting more transparently.
00;23;15;14 – 00;23;33;15
Evan Davis
To Erinch, your position in this conversation is really interesting because on the one hand, I think you’re conceding more than the other two, but your responses say we actually need to be more radical, more progressive, and more more honest sighted, but also with the honesty attached.
00;23;33;21 – 00;23;51;19
Erinch Sahan
Well, I mean, and where I see great hope is ideas like steward ownership, which is like new ways of structuring ownership, models that protect senior leaders and allow them to invest in their company or employee ownership, which is risen by more than a 30% per year here in the UK recently. There’s a tax break for selling your business theorem.
00;23;51;20 – 00;24;02;04
Evan Davis
All very interesting, but these are not part of the agenda. I think, of the American right. I mean I think they are just let the companies get on with it. Drill baby, drill and whatever they need to do.
00;24;02;10 – 00;24;25;02
Erinch Sahan
But these can transcend ideologies. That’s the exciting bit. Like employee ownership, for instance, has been embraced by centre right think tanks. It’s been embraced by parts of the JD Vance side of the MAGA movement. Organisations like American Compass, who are part of the broader MAGA camp, the think tank in the US. They have embraced ideas of working close more closely with unions.
So I think there is something that can be transformed by taking advantage of the moment and the opportunities as well. We could redesign and restructure capitalism right here.
00;24;34;25 – 00;24;51;28
Evan Davis
Right. Look, I want to draw this to a close. I want you to tell me what is, in practice, going to change in the UK as a result of the backlash that we’re seeing in the US and to some extent internationally against Dei and ESG? I’ll start with you, Erinch.
00;24;52;00 – 00;25;14;10
Erinch Sahan
Well, I think firstly, messaging is is going to change is already begun to change. Corporates are more careful in signing onto big grand statements. They’re more careful about talking about what they’re doing. So we had the era of greenwashing. And now I think we’re entering an era of green hushing where corporate leaders, are just more careful in what they’re saying.
00;25;14;12 – 00;25;37;17
Evan Davis
Chris,
Chris Davis
I think the first thing I would say is the role of a business leader that’s going to get more difficult. It’s going to keep getting more difficult as these pressures intensify and as they try and navigate what you see it playing out in the geopolitics as much as it is in culture, increasing uncertainty. And I think, therefore what you will see and the word I want to pick up on that, Erinch said earlier on is honesty.
I think in that more uncertain world, I think what we have to see happen within business is a more honest conversation about costs and decision-making and what’s behind those decisions. And in some cases, that’s not going to go the way that we would like it to go in this in this studio. But I think, you know, the more that people are thinking out loud about what’s behind their decisions, the more that this is just a conversation that’s happening out in the open rather than a sort of a war, whether a culture war of sorts kind of playing out.
00;26;08;14 – 00;26;25;05
Evan Davis
It will be really interesting to see if the sort of new subscriptions to your certification. Chris, if they tail off as, as kind of business, just thinks the new thing is to be thinking elsewhere, then this kind of stuff. I mean, been really, really interesting.
00;26;25;07 – 00;26;46;22
Chris Davis
On on that. And I think one really interesting dynamic, the where in the spirit of being honest, a really interesting dynamic that we will see playing out is, you know, on the one hand, we have exactly the question you do about, well is, you know, what’s going to happen to demand in this increasingly complex years ahead. And on the other hand, we’re making our standards much harder because that’s the right thing to do.
That’s what good looks like now. Expectations have gone up. Understanding of what good looks like has has evolved. So we’re not here to just up our numbers. We’re here to provide a really credible kind of proof of concept for doing business in a better way. And if that means there are fewer B Corp certified, then that’s fine by me.
00;27;05;08 – 00;27;06;27
Evan Davis
Okay. Last word Daniel.
00;27;07;00 – 00;27;25;00
Daniel Fellows
It’s very difficult for me to try and pure green hushing point as well. But I think as I said at the outset, I think DNI has reached its level of maturity, whereby it is embedded in most companies will move away from references to D&I. Although it’s less politicised in this country, it will definitely evolve into a people and culture.
And maybe we’ll really, really start focusing on training and education over a sustained period of time because DNI, people and culture is not a process that you finish. It’s a continual learning, almost like reinforcement learning, reinforcement engagement process.
00;27;39;01 – 00;28;04;23
Evan Davis
We need to leave it there. Look, let me thank my guests, Daniel, fellows from diverse SEO Aaronson from Doughnut Economics, Action Labs and Chris Turner from blab UK. Now, just to say, at the end of this series of The Bottom Line, we’re proposing to gather a panel of great business brains, small panel, and put to them your business questions for which we need your business questions.
Do let us have them bottom line at bbc.co.uk, do join us for our next episode. We’ll be talking to people who make it their business to fix our broken stuff, how to make money out of repairs. This episode is made in partnership with the Open University, and for industry tips and to explore how young professionals are, for example, transforming their jobs into green careers.
Go to bbc.co.uk forward slash bottom line. The podcast was produced by Bob Howard. It was presented by me, Evan Davis, and is a BBC long form audio production for radio four.
00;28;43;07 – 00;29;32;22
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